Surprise AMA from Charles 10/17/2018

00:00 to 1:44:01

hi everyone this is Charles Hoskinson broadcasting live from warm sunny Toronto I apologized about the bad mic and visual I also apologized about the Wi-Fi chat unfortunately my secretary booked Nia room in a hotel with really dreadful Wi-Fi so I'm on the top floor and a small lounge and a little obscure area nice view of the city and I hope that this is a good enough single signal so far this has been the one that's had the best signal throughout the hotel ok so anyway I wanted to do an AMA I've been wanting to do an AMA for a while but unfortunately I've been on the road and I've been quite indisposed with recent events but I did promise to do an AMA in TRO and so this is my last night in Toronto tomorrow I fly out to California to speak at a conference and then after that I get to go back home so to be an honest man I guess I have to broadcast tonight so thanks everybody for joining me and let's let's get to it ok an AMA isn't asking me anything and the feet might die again I'm on a hotel Wi-Fi and I do apologize if that occurs and I'll try to correct the issue okay so let's start with some of the news items before getting to your questions and there's actually a thread and I'll go ahead and post that thread in the comments for people of things that people previously asked starting about a month ago and these were questions that accumulated there's over 200 of them and then of course all try to ask answer some of your questions as well so we'll go back and forth between the live audience and the questions in the threat first news items as many people are aware there's been some issues with the Cardinal foundation as I stated previously last week these issues will not have an impact on Cardinal success or our ability to watch the protocol get things done continue our scientific research or for our go to embrace partnerships so what it has done however has slowed the community growth and it made it more difficult for us to combat things like FUD trolls it's also made it more difficult for us to build a cohesive community where we're all working on the same page and we're all unified so what we've done in the last week at i/o which can emerge o is that we've begun executing on a multi-pronged strategy to start the build up of community management the first prong of that strategy has been to see what we can salvage from the existing community management structures that we have working with people who are already in that role but underutilized or many ways prevented from doing their job second working with the community as a whole in particular the guardians of Cardno and some of the podcasters like Phillip and others and what we've decided to do is is try to build up a small apartment within IOH K we're also going to allocate some people who are working on other projects to assist for the moment with community management just so we can get that set up and where it needs to go so we'll make an announcement probably in a week or two about the community management team at i/o HK but we've already begun coordinating with the community management team at mergo we're working with Sebastian we're working with Nia taki and others there and Sebastian actually today just released a wonderful series I believe 14 lectures on how many good house works and we're gonna try to do is get much more educational content out the rest Cardno team has also released some infographics on Russ Cardinal and if you guys like those and you think they're interesting we'll try to do is create those for every aspect of our protocol so people have these printable easy-to-understand sheets that help break down very complicated concepts for the general public in addition to that we'd like to set up podcast where we run it maybe once to twice a week similar in format to the let's talk a theory on podcast let's talk et Cie podcasts at christian Severino runs but given the scope and scale of card ah no we'd like that podcast to be run by more than a single host so our hope is to have three hosts somebody from Amer go someone from the I which case I'd and hopefully someone from the guardian side and for them to have a split format of topics in addition to topics talking about doing interviews and things like that either with our scientists engineers prominent members of the community people who've bought a lotta ada want to tell everybody why they're so passionate about the project or people who've Anitra things for example I've gotten some tweets recently about a gentleman now Eastern Europe who recently planted a gingko tree and sent me some pictures over Twitter which was really cool and it'd be nifty to know why it did that how he heard about the project we also about a year ago at the Iowa chase summit invited someone who started accepting ADA at their hotel down in Spain and it was great to have dinner with them and so these are cool stories and it would be fun for these stories to be told in a more public way so people can kind of see that they're not the only people around who know about card I'll one last thing about the recent events I've noticed that a lot of people have become somewhat hostile and aggressive towards the foundation as a whole and in particular towards people like Michael Minelli and Michael Parsons and the reality is that we have a commercial dispute and we feel they're not doing their job but it doesn't mean we can't be civil and it doesn't mean that we can't be respectful as a community we've asked for questions to be answered and as a community we've asked for leadership change and the ball is now in the court of the foundation and the members on that side to send a response if they don't then over time we can get more aggressive but unfortunately some people have used this as a mandate to aggressively attack and go deeply personal and to engage at a level of civility that or lack of civility I should say that is counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish so to those who are taking this deeply personally I do too I feel the same anger and disappointment that you do but let's let's calm down a bit and let's be reasonable and rational and let's do what we can do to to get us where we need to go as a community as a whole I'm also quite proud of the guardians of cardano's efforts to keep things where they need to be keep the pressure high keep asking questions keep digging into the history because at the end of the day this is as much their protocol as it is my protocol as it is your protocol and they have every right to demand transparency honesty and accountability amongst every actor myself included am ergo and the foundation and those who represent them so keep up the good work and for those who are being a bit hostile and vicious tone it down okay all right so let's get to some of the questions all I'll take up something from the set here all right death metal asks what are your thoughts on lightning liquid network does it lead to centralization so I get this question a lot and it's an interesting question of well what is centralization you know what leads to centralization so right now if we look at the structure of Bitcoin a very strong argument can be made that a very small group of people less than 10 who own mining interests mining pools and mining capacity are basically in control of more than 51% of the hash power so from a certain perspective if that is your only metric of the centralization it would be perfectly reasonable to say that this is somewhat centralized system if only a small group of people we call it the two pizza rulers you could feed all the people with two pizzas then it's probably not a decentralized system that said there are developers there are exchanges there are checks and balances and when the system has been pushed too far in one direction there's always the opportunity to for when people have philosophical degree disagreements the two most prominent examples of that are the coin cash and a theorem classic so given the threat of Forex and the event that people don't do their job and given that there is diversity amongst developers and diversity amongst all of the actors from that perspective if one can make the argument that Bitcoin for example is a decentralized protocol the truth is probably somewhere in between where it gets interesting is when you start talking about services that exist in parallel or on top of the Bitcoin network or a blockchain as a whole things like the Lightning Network or the ratin network or things like side chains which are in some way connected or reliant upon the master chain and require some degree of Federation to work so you fall back on the well is that decentralized or centralized and again you run into the same situation of well who can stop you from using the service and are those people likely to cooperate for particular reasons say political or economic reasons or can those people be coerced or pressured into working against your best interest as a user of the system so in the case of what's been proposed for liquid or in the case of what's been proposed for lightning I personally don't believe that unless there's substantial political pressure that there's too much of a risk of the operation of such services from being somehow shut off as a consequence of a monopoly or centralization I think over time these services will tend to decentralize and over time or checks-and-balances will occur so that it will become more difficult for people to attempt to shut down or co-op these types of systems remember not too long ago about ten years ago it was very easy to shut down the Bitcoin network you just simply been shut down Satoshi single mining node and the network would die so networks that people use in in our environment tend to become more resilient over time now the cardano's odd we are quite enter stood in payment channels and state channels and we think the way that we've set up delegation and the reality of having stake pools as probably the predominant builders of the chain means that you can also piggyback layer 2 systems and value add services like Oracle's in that set so I'm currently in Toronto because or boards Genesis was presented today and during that same session that we presented the protocol there was also with a session from Steffensen boskie and his authors on general state channels and other presentations about using things like payment channels so there's a lot of innovation in that space and it would be quite easy for us to put a very reasonably decentralized payment system that permits micro payments and very very low cost transactions and very high frequency transactions that occur off chain and eventually settle on chain like lightning does into the Cardno Network so that's something we'll begin exploring close Shelley and it's actually quite easy for us to roll that in because what we can do is just basically take best available technology and it would be something that can be done in a matter of months with the engineers we have the architecture we have so a very good question it's very interesting question and I'd highly encourage people to actually read some of the papers that have recently come out on payment channels and papers that have come out on lightning and the discussions around it because it's a deeply philosophical discussion and it's one that's quite interesting now I did see one interesting paper today it was called rapid chain it's not a payment channel system it's actually a char double vft system but embedded within the paper with a deep discussion about latency and block size and if you look at work all the way back to Christian Decker and Roger Rotten offer from 2013 the crux of the work is that if he were to broadcast a 2 megabyte block across the network of a reasonable diameter say has around 4,000 nodes in it so something like the Bitcoin network at that time it took quite a bit of time for such a block to propagate in a matter of minutes so when you have things like that you kind of have limitations of the network stack related to the block size so even in a sharding scenario there is some maximum throughput of your transaction processing capabilities based upon the data you're attempting to reach consensus over now there are ways to mitigate this and a lot of people have thought very intelligently about it but at the end of the day network propagation and block sizing these things is a deeply studied really interesting topic and it's closely related to the debate about state channels and payment channels and so forth okay so let's keep going why did you wait until the Guardians demanded action to take action that's something we've been seeing floating around for quite some time we didn't wait we'd been taking action for months and months and frankly about two years in the relationship but we tried to take action with diplomacy and as adults we had many meetings some cases more than 1415 people in the meetings we tried every avenue to build effective positive relationships we were deferential we invited the foundation to attend events that we held we allowed IO HK developers to stop working on the protocol to go to community events at the foundation held we made recommendations for people we felt would be great scientists and engineers to join we offered to help the foundation construct a research programme when we express questions about distributed futures and it's incredibly important to understand that at the launch of Cardno when we had many things to do it would have been incredibly counterproductive for a massive public fight between our community and the foundation as a whole and at that point we had yet to exhaust all diplomatic options we were already planning to make some form of a statement at some point if things could not move along we were exceedingly frustrated with the lack of financial transparency of the foundation and we were promised that audited financials would be released so we could understand things like executive or enumeration the Cardinal foundation had a very long window of time more than a year to audit their books have produced audited financials and when it became clear to us that those financials would be unlikely to be released in any reasonable amount of time that was the last straw for us from a diplomatic viewpoint so we were at that point considering what options do we have in parallel the guardians of card ah no because they had heard that I which can emerge Oh were having difficulty with the CF for example my personal complaints with the audit and grumblings about the lack of community management amongst other things started an investigation where they started looking into affiliations relationships corporate registrations for companies that were connected to the foundation and they produced a very long list of questions they privately sent that list of questions to the Cardinal foundation we also received the list of a week or so in advance and at that point they asked the foundation privately could you at least give us the community the leaders of the community some degree of transparency and like with our queries their queries were met with silence so Guardians decided to move on and we realized that at this point we'd seen a sea change in the community and it was time for us to move on completely so we didn't wait we certainly were working but we were trying to work in a way that wouldn't introduce a scandal or work in a way that wouldn't introduce bad press for a very young protocol that was trying to form its way looking at the tailless affair or looking at other Affairs or scandals in the community it's incredibly easy for the media especially our media to misinterpret very carefully worded very precise statements and rephrased them in completely inaccurate ways for example for over three days after we made our announcement we found out that in Korea news reports were floating around saying that I left the Cardinal movement and I which kaze no longer working on Cardinal we had to issue a statement there saying that that's not true the same was done in Japan the same was done in other jurisdictions to prey upon the markets and damage the price of Aida so we understood that no matter what we said publicly some group of people for political purposes commercial purposes or just to rob investors of money would misinterpret purposely the news and broadcast fun and that's always the risk you take was disclosures so it took quite a bit of careful consideration about what was the best way to manage and sculpt the message and having the guardians around is an incredibly powerful thing for us because it gives us the ability to have community moderators go through and stamp out inaccurate information as they have repeatedly done over the past week as so that's all I have to say about that Paul Bunyan says can you talk a little bit more about the topic of interacting with foreign governments your engagement particularly with less developed nations has been a fascinating aspect of the project that actually has been probably one of the most rewarding and interesting dimensions of my job and frankly wasn't part of my original contract the goal of IOH k's relationship with cardinal ecosystem was strictly to build the technology so that meant we'd go to scientific conferences engage universities hire engineers work with security auditors there's a lot of dimensions to that particular job but it's something that I never imagined what extended scale to be sitting down with heads of state or foreign ministers are the sons of presidents and having long discussions with them about KYC naml or the future of securities regulations in their country or issues that they have with the global financial system that are frankly destroying their country's ability to compete or their people's ability to grow within the within the global community so that was an unattended consequence of the Foundation's inability to lobby or interface with governments in any meaningful way and it's something that I've come to enjoy more than I think anything else in my job strictly because I now actually get to see firsthand the people directly who will be impacted by the existence of technology like Cardno so generally how we talk to governments especially in developing countries is that there's usually already liaisons either community members ihk employees Merkel employees some group of people who have relationships and contacts it can be with a member of parliament it can be with the provincial governor it could be with a particularly influential captain of industry who happens to know the president's brother or something like that and when these events occur it gives us an opening to basically travel to the country meet with major figures and ask them where would you like your country go over the next 10 or 20 years and how does blockchain technology fit into that global framework and have you already done some experiments so these conversations are not strictly about blockchain we generally talk about ICT in general we generally talk about education we generally talk about their ability to compete globally particularly in a knowledge economy so they're intellectually speaking very challenging conversations because they cover a very wide range of topics the type of things you would expect to see at Davos or you would expect to see at a United Nations meeting or something like that but when it comes to blockchain usually the discussion stems around trust credibility and efficiency a lot of cases when you talk about developing countries you have this Buzard economy where there is enormous value in the country value in people valued knowledge valued labour value and agriculture value Natural Resources value and even tourism but that value is mostly inaccessible to the global markets because the markets for whatever reason historical geopolitical whatever it might be cannot effectively connect with and interface with that country you know if you come from a Angola or Uganda or Ethiopia there's all these barriers that exist some cases artificial barriers but they still exist to prevent you from doing things that a person who was born in America works in America or the European Union or Japan would be able to do so when they look at blockchain technology they view this as potentially a great equalizer effectively what that means is that they can say hey look don't trust us don't trust whatever laws we have or our brand or reputation we're going to volunteer to constrain our behavior to a system where even we the government won't necessarily be able to manipulate the records or the marketplaces and given that type of a setting a lot of people would actually give these countries a second chance for the purposes of direct foreign investment lending or massive efficiency gains and things remittances or so forth so these are usually the the nature of the conversations I have we've been offered a lot of pilots we've been offered a lot of opportunities to go and do interesting things we're particularly interested in building new compliance system using zero-knowledge cryptography and allowing people own their own data so banks start spying on people and having the issue SARS every time something goes wrong but that's just one of many projects that were we've been approached about or have been internally considering to get involved with now I'm getting older and fatter and I can't travel as much as I used to and this pace is not sustainable so at some point we're going to have to diversify the direct foreign outreach and we've already done so in Africa John O Connor our director of African operations has had meetings with many heads of state ministers financial ministers several princes kings it's pretty interesting to see how far he's gone and the countries he's gone to and we're planning on continuing that amazing pace anamur NGO has done some pretty good work running around in to be Asia and other places and Taiwan and so forth and they've had great meetings and interfaces with governments in Asia so we're we're definitely making progress and we're definitely diversifying the pool but it is pretty preliminary and 2019 is really going to be the year where we start seeing a lot of pilots four come and we'll try to pick and choose the ones that can best demonstrate the collection of technologies we've constructed yeah hi Charles iMessage Geoff Bullock your CFO to offer my help and growing card on UK i kabir I'll definitely go ahead and give him a nudge he's a New Jersey guy and actually 4/2 at this leaves right now in Switzerland and Greece running around taking care of a few things absolutely amazing CFO the best I've ever worked with in my career all right why are you allowing Parsons to get away with stealing over 600 million Aida Parsons first off it's not my call of what Parsons does or doesn't do foundation is by design independent entity but no one foundation is a regulated not-for-profit and that ADA does not belong to Parsons it is property of the Cardinal foundation if he attempts to spend it for personal use or gain he'd likely go to jail for that so while it's inaccessible and it's incredibly frustrating that things can't be deployed to the market when they were intended to be deployed not going anywhere it's just gonna sit there until wise your minds prevail and they eventually always do as this is a regulated entity in one way or another it'll open up and when it does that a it money will be spent for the good will and interest of the community and if Parsons has taken some of it I don't believe he has on the a decide then then he'll face the consequences of it so stop fighting Mike Smith Charles I recently heard of a to Senator charge for transaction truth if so will this be lower you know we are planning on actually writing a pretty aggressive paper on a dynamic transaction fee system that's a bit more responsive to the price of EDA you know that the problem with ADA is ADA like any cryptocurrency can't know its own price so it has to have an Oracle some sort of trusted third party that would inject information into the system to let you know how much it's worth and Bitcoin suffered from the same issue with transaction fees for one Bitcoin was you know 10 cents so you know Bitcoin fees can go up and down ADA fees can go up and down it would be nice to have a system that's a bit more dynamic and responsive but we haven't quite gotten to the point where we're starting to do aggressive research on that because right now fees are being burnt meaning no one profits from them and when the fees get burnt means the monetary supply contracts a little bit so it's kind of like a tiny little gift to everybody in the entire ecosystem when you spend data we didn't really think too much about dynamically raising the fee or lowering the fee but it's gonna be something that we start looking into quite aggressively in q1 of 2019 and we'll probably have something that we roll out shortly at the network decentralizes the simplest way of doing it would just allow people to vote on the fees to lower the default fee in the system or to give people total control over setting their fees and the state pools can individually decide on which ones except at the moment the way the protocol structured it's easy for a state pool to to accept or reject any transaction they want they can modify the software accordingly for that so it's a topic we'll come back to but it's a topic we haven't thought too much about right now because we're just quite interested in making sure that we get Shelly out the door but there is going to be a group of people who worry about specific type of thing it's kind of this same group of people who worry about all mechanism design and market style things so the people who read our incentives research like Elias at Oxford and will write some nice paper on it it'll be a good compromise paper and I think it'll be reasonable and then what we can do is probably introduce some notion of democracy to try to modify that a bit but I'd like to see a market-oriented system for it another AOS question thoughts on hyper ledger are you planning on collaborating with them to create industry standards hyper ledger David is a real great collection of projects there are two major projects with it I want to sawtooth and the other one is fabric we know the fabric people much better than the Sawtooth people they're led by Christian cash and he's also the head of the I ACR and he's a good guy to have dinner with and he's one of the world's top experts and distribute systems fact if you ever take a course in the topic you're probably either gonna read his book or Nancy Lynch's book Nancy's at MIT so fabric is well-constructed it's written and go and uses bft simple Kafka uses this concept known as chain code basically you define your actors and write what your transaction semantics are for them and then they can operate within that environment so it's a very well thought out very cogent platform for permission Ledger's the hyper ledger guys are quite interested in working with us in some capacity we float around a couple of ideas we have an Enterprise version or borås called or boards BFT we also have a version of war horse with probabilistic finality that we could deploy for a permission letter juror setting and it would be nice to see if we could roll that their way so we've we've added ideas back and forth about contributions to the fabric code base we also have our own enterprise group that's led by Bruno paleo and Bruno is working on a collection of proof of concepts in Scala which will be used to deploy Cardinal related pilots in Africa in 2019 so relationship is good and warm we also do joint research with the IBM Research we have a European Union grant and our side of it is to worry about decentralized software updates so it's quite complimentary to things we worry about with Cardinal as a whole and I imagine that those collaborations could eventually their way into something like the enterprise blockchain space so the answer in short is yes all right let's see if there's all right so let's go to the am a threat there were over 200 questions that were asked in the am a threat so I'll grab one there usually people do this with a second person but unfortunately I don't have one we're here with me at the moment hi Charles I remember Duncan talking about having assets in Cardno as first class citizens the same way ADA is without the need for the smart contract ERC 20 style do these assets live in SL also do they have any relationship with ADA for example they are under ADA staking rules where are they independent Thanks okay so the first part of the question do these assets live in the SL the answer is yes they will live in the SL via the chimeric assets standard sebastian created a great video on what that is and how we think about these types of things and we are going to have our own variant of ERC 24 SL for a person to launch e token on our system and yes it is our intention to have our tokens that are issued on the system be first class citizens and what that means is that you pay transaction fees for those tokens with the tokens themselves not with ADA so the advantage to a person issuing an asset on our system is that they inherit the security that ADA brings them and the warhorse system brings them but they don't have to go and find their own stake pools and mining miners or deploy and run their own network infrastructure they're basically living the best of both worlds they enjoy being a decentralized asset on a decentralized system but at the same time they don't have to pay the cost of maintaining that system so there's a natural question to ask what is the benefit to ADA for having these types of assets well it is our intention at some point the future to have some form of a decentralized exchange and it would make a lot of sense for either to be the pairing currency for that and if that's the case then it would be basically create a lot of volume to the ADA for people going in and out of it using it as a reserve currency for the trading pairs within the system similar to the u.s. dollar in the forex markets so that alone we feel is a great value relative to whatever bloat this occurs but we think we'll have enough TPS and storage network capacity to support many many many assets in the system and a lot of the technology were working on will allow us to eventually have tens or hundreds of thousands of assets over a long arc of time but it's an interesting thing to think about hi Charles what happens to the aid the foundation has gonna stay at the foundation until it's useful if the foundation doesn't give up power what will happen to card ah no nothing it's just kind of like the Bitcoin foundation to Bitcoin card ah no is already decentralized enough to not really need the foundation so as a consequence if they never become productive it was kind of a tragic loss to the ecosystem that we weren't able to efficiently use the money and but it doesn't kill us and I feel that our will overcome this event so if they're useful they're a value add if they fail it will be okay we'll succeed so this is a good question when you talk about putting property deeds on the blockchain how can you confirm that no one is counterfeiting the deed what anyone wouldn't anyone with the axis of blockchain be able to put the same property twice or at least have the acreage from two separate properties listed in the blockchain and how would a property deed from the blockchain be legally binding this is a very press is actually a very smart question and this is one where it exposes the limitations of what blotching can do for things like property registration blockchain technology is not intended to completely displace people so what happens is when you're talking about concepts like who owns the car or who owns the land or who owns that bar of gold these are physical assets and the story behind those physical assets has to be stored somewhere so generally you take that story and you write it down on a piece of paper and you store it somewhere and whoever has access to that and legitimizes that is the person who has got the most power in the relationship so what blockchain does is says okay what you can do is take that story about who owns the land who used to own it who will own it and the transaction mechanics behind transferring it from one person to the other and storing the metadata about it and put it into a location that's transnational now this is incredibly advantageous because there's a huge temptation especially in developing countries for people to change the ledger when politics are convenient yeah and these can be things like civil asset forfeiture these can be things like eminent domain these can be things like outright nepotistic theft as what we saw during the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe or when then as well at nationalize much of their land and in these cases well the government has taken it the record still remains the same of who used to own a wife this is advantageous to people is because basically what happens is when these corrupt terrible regimes fall apart it's much easier for us to be able to intervene as a global community or whoever takes over the country next and right wrongs in the past one of the great his tragedies of the Holocaust post holocaust was that it was extremely difficult for the survivors to be able to actually return to the land property assets that they had taken from them by the Nazis and this was because a lot of the records is who owned what were destroyed the same was the case in Rwanda and many other places where there's a diaspora as a result of a genocide or terrible event and it's already a major issue in countries like Iraq Afghanistan and Syria and there are huge debates and disputes having a blotching as the trusted source that has auditable time stamped immutable records is something that would dramatically alleviate these types of issues the other thing is that it's not a single purpose system that's the other power of putting things like land registration for example on a blockchain you are also talking about a payment system and you're also talking about a signature system so you can have non reputable ization of events for example if you're a rancher all the time you're going to have people Menon ask you things like hey can I use part of your land for my cattle come the summer or hey can I get access to my barn by going through your land or hey can I take some of your irrigation water and orally they'll agree and say sure well now we have a system or such a discussion can be stored with the land these off title discussions can become actually quite problematic when people buy land or have these discussions it's quite expensive to actually even find out how to go about discovering these agreements especially when people die or family members fight so having the ability to tell a story about the property the agreements that are off title on the property are credibly important as for payment systems imagine if you have minerals like oil or copper or something on your land it would be really awesome if you just had a payment system connected to the title and when you authorize people to come in they could just directly pay the land itself and as the owner of it you get dividends or you pull it out or do certain things with it you can also have property taxes directly deducted from the accounts owned by the property so people can fund that off and the government's can have a much more dynamic property taxation system these are all advantages you get when you actually have a digital land registration system whereas if you have a paper system you have hundreds of independent business activities connected to the land which unfortunately are all siloed from each other unaware of each other and an enormous amount of money has to be spent retaining professionals and working with domain experts to try to sort out all these things so it's our hope then we move into the these 21st century systems we'll be able to move some of the poorest countries in the world they have now some of the most sophisticated land registration systems so where does Cardinal fit into all of this well the DNA of Cardinal the protocols we've come up with like how to handle transactions or how to develop design ledger that can form the backbone of a property registration system and you can use at the very least a public blockchain to act as an anchor for the records there so you can take hashes of all those records and embed them kind of like what factum is done for Bitcoin and embed them into the Carano blockchain so it acts as an auditor of the auditor so even if the government gets dishonest you know they are dishonest people can show the correct records second by wiring people into a blockchain system whether it be permission or permission lists you have now created a PKI and you've created a namespace and what that means is you now have an interface where you can send assets to those people by a site change transaction and back given that these private systems can be deployed and they're understandable to the Cardinal blockchain it's entirely possible three to five years for people to talk about collateralized lending where a person can put up their land as collateral for a loan and you'd actually be able to see and verify and understand that in a decentralized way and have a peer-to-peer lending system to give 50 to a hundred dollars to let's say a coffee farmer in Ethiopia the end you can even have third-party attestation or insurer of these loans where if they default maybe the neighbor will step in and provide some sort of collateral or leverage or maybe a government will ensure the loans or something like that or a private entity or an international aid group or something like that now all of these things are really expensive to deploy and they're highly personal when you're talking about undo ties unbanked people when you deploy these types of systems usually as private Ledger's now you actually have them an infrastructure that is interoperable with the Cardinal system and then the Cardinal system can be the interface to a parallel and new financial system a place where they can get insurance or loans from that they probably can't get from conventional markets or issue assets to that they probably couldn't get from conventional markets in the distant future maybe five or ten years we could even talk about security tokens where coops of farms get together and they tokenize their output and actually issued assets but those asset through a series of complex financial transactions on the Cardinal system as native assets and then people trade them with domain specific contracts executed with bio marlowe for example and all of these things can be templated wouldn't necessarily even require a lawyer and what in the 20th century looked like IPO or some sort of sophisticated securities offering for our millions of dollars to do but would be accessible to a group of people that collectively maybe have less than ten thousand or a hundred thousand dollars it'll allow them to raise capital or allow them to hedge risk or spread risk around and play and compete in global markets for the first time ever so that interplay between the public and private blockchain has always been what cardano's about and it's something that whether you're registering land or people it's something that we look really forward to exploring 2019 2020 and beyond alright let's take another one from the audience Charles is Carter coming out with an 8 a debit card or credit card of some type was on the roadmap it was one of the Foundation's responsibilities they're the ones who announced it we we said great let us know if we can help and nothing happened for a year welcome to my life so Amerigo and Iowa you're starting to look into it we've already started talking to some vendors there's a few that are interesting and it's not super hard thing to get done and now that we're looking into it hopefully we'll be able to make an announcement soon Charles talked to me about ways to make offline transactions besides crypto Hardware it's easy to do an offline transaction that's always easy to do I can take a transaction even with Bitcoin sign it and put it on a flash drive hand it to you so here you go it's yours Bob it's all yours but here's the issue how do you know that I haven't double spent it how do you know I actually have it without some other knowledge like trusting me or having a full copy of the blockchain and being online and checking that's always difficult and so trusted hardware is really nice because what it does is it says hey you can't lie in both directions one when the trusted hardware is able to get access the chain it's verified that it is looking at the right chain the trusted hardware is able to get a snapshot of history and get a special transaction sent to it to a private key that everybody knows can only live within the Enclave so that's one dimension of it and then the other dimension is when Bob goes Dallas and says I'll send you this ADA what it allows you to do is erase the key on Bob's module and give Alice two proofs one is the proof that the key has been erased to a proof that that key was unique there is no other copy of it anywhere else so effectively what you've done is you've given Alice the value and you've done it in an eerie infinitely scalable way because what's happened is that from the blockchains perspective no transactions actually occurred you've just moved access to some funds from one person to the next person and you see but Charles how do you handle a transaction like that I mean what if you have to you know what if you have to buy something that's less than the amount you have well we have what's called cash register accounting we've been doing that for a long time with cash you go to the supermarket and say that'll be dollar five 85 and a person hands you $2 the merchant has to hand back 45 cents so you can do the exact same thing with this type of a system you'd have to work a little bit about how to make these types of things efficient and then actually this is exactly where payment channels could provide a tremendously good solution I'm not aware of any software solution our protocol level solution that would give you that same level of assurance that keys have been erased keys are unique or the same level assurance that the transaction that you're trying to clear is actually not double spent or still valid so I'm sure that wiser people who study this for a living can come and show me something interesting but I haven't seen any papers and it looks like Trust at heart was perfect the other reason why I trusted hardware so appealing is that trusted hardware exists in both your laptop and your cell phone so as a consequence if you look to 2020 2025 that time range it is incredibly reasonable to assume that the vast majority of people even the people live in the poorest countries in the world will have a device with a trusted Hardware Enclave in it meaning these offline transaction capabilities will already be built in by the software by the hardware vendor into their device it's an open question whether you can access that everybody's going to be able to use it but a very meaningfully large group of people will be able to and you can even create open source trusted hardware modules and create a kind of a distributed route of trust for authenticating them if you want it to break the monopoly of what's an SG X or trust zone or what empty has and it's probably a great line for entrepreneurs to think about build but it's a great space it's it's a value add to the system and if we're really serious about getting penetration into market places that don't have reliable internet it's a must which is why we put so much money who are trusted hardware lab to study topics just like this yeah yes so this is an interesting question Charles will card on Oh allow for other currencies to be built on top that allows for economic abstractions facilitate consensus like can I make a currency with a separate token for staking and the answer is yes with a caveat of but so yes in that you can create your own currency with your own consensus mechanism and your on security notions and if you're going to go down that road this is exactly why we embrace the two-layer consensus model the two-layer blockchain model that Cardinal has we have this idea of SL and Cl so SL is a settlement layer and that's where all the assets live financial transactions occur and domain-specific languages exist for that it's been highly optimized for a particular way of handling accounting which is really beneficial for the vast majority of things we've seen over the last 10 years in the cryptocurrency space but what happens if you wake up and you say gosh I just want to do it myself I want to have proof of work but I still want to in some way connect to or be interoperable with Cardinal so that's the whole point of having an overlay layer like for example when you want to mix accounting computation together as aetherium has done or as euros has done or the other guys have done you can do that with a control layer and that's what the second layer of our system is and what we've already demonstrated in practice with K EVM and at the yellow test that's so when our sidechains protocol comes out if your system is compliant with that protocol people will be able to move data back into your system and out of your system and you'll be able to move your token in your system to our system and back so that's they don't there's not a master/slave relationship it's a firewalled relationship meaning that it's easy to move assets to and fro the first generation of side chains we launch will be custom tailored for KVM and yella as this is for interoperability with those smart contract paradigms but later versions will include more generalities so we can wire our system together with things like etc' and aetherium and future versions of other protocols and potentially even Bitcoin depending upon where their upgrade past sits your cryptocurrency as well just fall on open standard and I think many people will start thinking more about the Internet of blockchains and less about their particular blockchain because it's important to be able to move assets around so well Cardinal make the staking process understandable to normal people there's a lot of misconceptions about staking about what it is I hear things like what is my percentage return as if it's like a dividend on bond or something it's not you know so in the beginning there was mining and what was mining I'll start out with a common reference string you started with this notion of the beginning and then you said okay let's have a puzzle contest and whoever finds the puzzle has the right to move to the next state of the system and decide what that net state looks like bounded by a collection of common rules okay that's all it is is this a contest and Bob does his work and Alice does her work and eventually somebody figures it out and says I've won and says what what did I win I won the right to advance the network and if I do so I get paid to do that so it's a contest you win the contest you get the right to do something and only if you do that thing you make that block do you actually get paid that's the important point of mining now our proof of state system is no different in that respect there is a contest and the contest collects a group of winners now instead of saying that to win that contest you go have to burn more electricity than the entire country of Ecuador or the entire country of Ireland we can do away with all that nonsense and we can just elect people who fortunately to their stake it still means that when you win you have to do something or you have to give that right to do something to somebody else and only if you do it or somebody else does it will you get paid so that's not how given its work that's not how interest works those are you do nothing because your capitals at risk you get paid a profit for that this is just saying we have to pick a leader and the people we pick probably should be the people who have the highest vesting in the best interest of the long-term success of the system this is not the case with mining especially when you have competitive proven work protocols now later on we could change parameters and say we've come up with some metric Kollek gamma and gamma is designed in such a way where we say you're a good citizen of card I'll and gamma will bias your chance of winning positively or negatively based upon whether you're a good citizen or not we could certainly explore that in next generations of proof of stake already some on the engineering side have thought about such soft notions and and so you can move from just how much stake do you have for your chance of winning but winning means nothing if you do nothing so you still have to do something now what do you do at the moment you make a block what is making a block mean you soak up all those transactions in the mempool you put them in a certain way make sure they're right if there's programs you run those programs verifiable and then you put them all in and then you attach that block to the prior block you're done then and only then do you get paid and in our case yet you have to wait for the epic debt now later versions of the protocol may include a large collection of other services that if you don't do those things you get paid less or in some cases get paid nothing or might even you're elected multiple times but contingencies where you have to show up work all the time or you forfeit all your weddings that sample so that's an important distinction and it's something that for some reason some hurt along the way people have just been unable to understand there is no difference in the proof of state system from the proof of work system in terms of returns you know it's a parameter that you set in the system but the concept is still the same you're paid to do something you're not paid for just sitting on your ass and having money so now in terms of what percentage should be paid that's a prayer under of the system and you have to be pretty careful with that we published a paper recently with Lea's kasuba slores Burgess and aguilas and that paper covers economic incentives and that paper is specifically attuned to how should you structure incentives in a way to create a collection of state pools at a stable state and we discovered within that paper that we think our system could sustain a total of over a thousand state pools assuming that most people would be rational just to simply delegate but some people would perhaps want to just run their own pool or run their own staking operation so so I'd encourage people to read that paper the final parameterization will be set as we get closer to launch if Shelley but it's it's probably going to be around 5% inflation and per annum but there a lot of factors that fit into that the amount of transactions we have fit into profit there's also the concept of the Treasury system and what the Treasury system comes out percentage of rewards will be allocated to the Treasury and these things are discussed in the paper and have been discussed and literature that we have in particular works lares Bridges has been working on so it's kind of a great question when you see things like this from Dan Witherspoon is there any reason cardano's more suited to the K framework than other protocols it's kind of like asking is there any reason my skis are more suited to the desert than your skis so the K framework is is not meant for crypto currencies it's meant for programming languages and in in programs the goal of the K framework is to say that you have with a programming language semantics and syntax and tax or the letter ISM semantics are how you string these types of things together to derive meaning so you have symbols the alphabet is composed of symbols this operators like + signs equal signs and these things have meaning behind them so when you say something like the dog left over the fence that's a well-formed meaningful sentence in English if you say fence dog left it loses meaning if you say dog left dog fence lip you know it's it's these these types of things have have a requirement a semantical requirement for how they should be structure and you can actually have a lot of fun with it there's a famous sentence if I get it right Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo pup so ate buffalo is a taro do you think that that would just be meaningless but it turns out that the semantical rules of English are structured in such a way that that sentence actually means something if you don't believe me if you enter it all went to Google the very first result will be a Wikipedia page which has a tree showing how to break down that particular sentence and derive a particular meaning of that sentence so semantical rules can be quite involved and if you're not familiar with them it can be difficult at times to understand statements now where things can go wrong when you're talking about formal languages and formal languages you would hope would be very rigorously defined and have no ambiguity unfortunately there are times however were you in the design of a programming language there can exist ambiguity and different people have different like see compilers for example where the same program compiled by different compilers would have different outputs this is a big issue especially if you're talking about deterministic financial software where things go screwy everything goes to hell and everybody loses their money so to ameliorate that it's very good to remove any beauty absolutely so how you do that is you read a complete comprehensive formal set of semantics for your language and that means whatever statement you see you're able to derive from that set of formal semantics a absolute understanding of whether that is a well formed formula a well-formed statement or if the statement is not well formed and as a consequence is meaningless and it doesn't have an interpretation in your system the the situation like you know snake tree wheelbarrow jump like that's its words but they're meaningless in that configuration so anyway the key framework is the is a framework that lets you take a programming language like Java or Python or JavaScript and write the semantics of the Hat in a way so that you can remove that ambiguity and you can also gain access to a lot of tooling so you can analyze programs that are written in that language in a more generic and abstract way now for non PL people this doesn't seem to be very important and to be frank it's not for many of the cases the magic of K is interoperability once you have two languages written in the case of antics written for those languages you can talk about a technique called semantics based compilation where you're able through the magic of PL theory to move from one language of semantics to a program in the other language and as a consequence you'll be able to run that that program of that other language kind of the way so this is a kind of a butchered simplification of the concept but it is meaningful for us as an ecosystem because what it effectively means that if we do things in a very careful way with yela given that we have the case semantics of Yola all we will need to do when semantic space compilation has reached its nadir is to just simply write the semantics once of a new programming language and if we ever want to update illa we just update the semantics of yella but we do not need to update the semantics of any other programming language hypothetically so that means over time our system could eventually support hundreds or even thousands of programming languages for people to write some more contracts and and we have almost no upgrade friction when we have new innovations that we want to take to the base layer of the system there are other advantages with kaa like formal verification of contracts creating this improve objects or verified computation where you can potentially run things off chain or writing formal specifications for templated smart contract standards like what run time verification is done with ERC 771 and the RC 20 and will do for other tokens as well other templates as well but that's that's the point of K it's not an end-all be-all technology and it's not something we've bet the entire farm on as we have a whole team doing something very different with Plutus but it is something we feel gives us a really compelling story about interoperability and can bring a lot of mainstream regular everyday developers into our system having this almost universal language so my crescendo dat store for card on the some near and dear to my heart recently and I am a Brack well released a video of me when I was the CEO of the etherium project very early days April of 2014 and part of the pre-interview I was actually discussing this idea of a universal app store for gaps I don't know if an event made it into the interview or not I can't recall but something I did discuss a lot back in those days and it's something I never forgot about so we have something called Daedalus Daedalus is actually going to be at some point our version of a decentralized app store of every month get a prototype we've had some great success actually connecting docker images to it and at some point we're actually gonna use the blockchain is a backbone to distribute PKI for authors metadata and distribution information and get to one-click install for people to install the front end and server logic for adapts for yourself hosting or for connecting to a third party and they have that smart contract uplink and for Def's and to interface for example with your local honey because these things have to be wired together so we'll let Darko who's the product manager behind that make statements later and we'll certainly have them work with Haley but I that's something every month we see some progress being made and that's pretty cool progress doing interesting things with graphic ul and docker we already have kind of a nice GUI planned out for how the DAP store is gonna look and so forth but it's another value add to people who build apps in our ecosystem alright let's take another question from the reddit that's a really interesting question do you think having us raise four billion USD versus you raising somewhere at sixty million USD is anyhow good evening them a competitive advantage that will be hard to deal with it's clear that you have a much better team product performance but they have an endless source of money can this be any sort of threat that's a good question I get that question a lot especially on the road it's kind of funny that the number two cryptocurrency raised 18 million to get where it's at and the number one cryptocurrency raised nothing you know so if you think about that you know it would is there strong evidence in the space the amount of money you raise doesn't really have a lot to do with your ability to succeed you know just recently I read a coin desk article on Manero and they successfully integrated bulletproof and bulletproof great invention from people in the valley in California the implementation that the Monaro people did is interesting Cadel ski audited it looks like it'll be successfully in and it's gonna be a huge benefit to their ecosystem so you don't necessarily need massive war chest of money to succeed in this space and actually there's a great business analogy and it was the war between Microsoft and Google so Google had the market share Microsoft had the war chest Microsoft wanted to compete with Google and every year it would launch a new product or a new initiative or try to do something crazy like Baja Yahoo and they would dump billions and billions and billions of dollars into building up Bing and building up their search infrastructure and they even resorted trying to pay people bribe people to use Bing one way or another say hey we'll buy an xbox if you get enough think points so despite the fact that Microsoft dumped tens of billions of dollars in strategic acquisitions bribery's and other efforts they weren't meaningfully able to move the market share simply because well Google was more convenient and consumer behavior was more aligned with what Google was about and Google who was also quite competitive as a company and kept adding new features and functionality and the searches always seem to be still do seem to be a little bit better from Google so I don't think too much and we're too much about competitors like us or days those who have raised a significantly larger amount of money because the best that they can do is to go to somebody and bribe them to build on their system and those bribes are always short-term boosts just because you can get Alice or Bob to mitigate to your system if Alice and Bob won't stay there if your system doesn't offer a compelling great experience for your customer second we tend to compete in different circles most people chase the Western developed world I tend to chase the developing world that have a pan-african a strategy and a Mirko has an Asian strategy and the types of customers we're dealing with many cases this is the first cryptocurrency that they've ever dealt with so we are there Bitcoin so I don't worry too much about it they're taking in that much money creates existential risks to the project because the project becomes less about what can we do for people and what is the mission the philosophy the goal and it becomes more about how do I get some chunk of this large pile of money that's sitting in the backdrop billions of dollars are very corrosive and they're a big temptation and there's something that eat away at people over time so it's a liability from that perspective and also in my view the way that they raised their money may encumber considerable regulatory risks moving into 2019 and 2020 so I don't envy their position and I feel very bad for the people have chosen to base their entire businesses success on those platforms just because they may have gotten a bribe so we wish them well but we're not optimistic for success now this actually a great question would it be possible a regular monthly analytics and report statistics regarding the health activity performance of the clock carbonyl blockchain I did some statistics and analytics we do have some things built into Daedalus that give us a notion of user experience as most people with PI software do so I've been talking Neill and Peter are guys of predictable network solutions and I've also talked to Robin a little bit our new open source community manager is coming on board about may be releasing some form of a monthly community report including key metrics about the growth and health of the Cardinal Network so one thing that the community as a whole could do to help us along that line is if you could actually identify a collection of key metrics so KPIs that you care about things that you think would be great indicators of the health of Cardinals growth we could then come up with a plan to track those things on our end and to our best of art ability and released that with some degree of regularity to the community thoughts on Definity I like Dominic think he's a good guy I like their company I like that they're putting money into research I was here at CCS we presented a paper the very next paper had Definity co-authors on it any venture whether we compete with them or not that invested money into science and research and goes through the peer review process it respects that process I think is a wise venture and because they're respecting that process because they're investing in research I think they're great guys you know will of course always disagree here and there on particular protocols or how to solve a particular problem but I won't question their ethics and I won't question their business strategy if they're embracing peer review to verify the scientific claims that they're making so good to see that they're hiring people in that domain and I hope more people do that alright let's take another one from the thread here all right we have another question area so you don't believe there is a need for complex event processing technology in the Cardinal ecosystem people need Oracle's should be trusted to do the complex observations from our local contracts under complex I mean having a complex pattern of high-frequency observables which is very common and financial domain where Marlon smart contracts are positioned there was a proposal to develop a smart rules layer on top of our contracts layer which would have a centralized infrastructure of CEP engines consenting about complex observations that would independently detect is this fully out of scope and consideration or you expect complex observations to happen in a smart contract layer this is kind of a really interesting technical question yeah this whole condo should have complex event processing so basically succinctly complex events are things where you can because you're a human being you're good at pattern recognition you can look at a collection of unrelated things that seem unrelated but then realize that they actually have some sort of relationship to each other for example if you see e smoke coming out of a window you walk over and touch the door handle it's really hot and you smell smoke you smell something you probably prefer oh these are independent events a hot handle and smoke coming out of the window and my sense of smell means that there's probably a fire on the other side of that door or nearby that door that's causing the door to heat up now you could be wrong because this is a probabilistic thing maybe if these are all completely unrelated Bob is smoking in the bathroom and you know that's why the thing is coming out and somebody's been heating the doorknob with a wire or something but in the you know you you look at probabilities so we tend to do this in the financial world where people write very sophisticated software to look at events and try to group them in a way and then create a way of processing those events to make decisions about where to go and what to do with those events for example there's a very famous event where somebody hacked into a Twitter feed of a news agency major news agency and created a fake tweet saying that the White House was attacked and the president was injured and on the way to the hospital now regardless if you're Republican or Democrat leaders happened during the Obama administration the president being injured in an attack on the White House is considered to be a very bad event for the markets creates uncertainty and volatility now if human beings were looking at that you would expect reaction time matter of minutes to hours and for the markets respond accordingly so there would be a latency between when the event occurred and that's a singular event and when the reaction to the event occurred what's really curious about it was that the markets almost instantly after that tweet was launched because what happened was that we had complicated algorithmic trading systems that were using natural language processing to go through Twitter feeds of millions of news agencies and individuals and stream all of these things together into a market sentiment notion and say oh if this collection events occurs there's a belief that these events by aggregate mean there's a bad thing or it's a trading signal to sell or trading soon by so there's all kinds of things like Apache flink and other things that allow you to think about a complex event processing a layer it with ml and layer the other thing is it's nancial systems and you know how people will tend to respond another common example could be things like fraud detection with credit card systems where you know you have bought up living in let's say the City of Toronto and then suddenly in Vietnam there's a transaction now yes could be entirely possible that Bob is in Ho Chi Minh buying some noodles with his credit card but if Bob also on the same day just four hours earlier purchased dinner in Toronto it's probably pretty unlikely that he also somehow is in Vietnam but it's physically possible to travel that far in that amount of time with a reasonable person so still you'd say these these events have a this has got to be fraud but you know you have to build smart systems and if you tremendous hassle if Bob does travel a lot as I travel a lot every single time you try to use your card is declined because the algorithms are quite primitive well they could look at things like he used his credit card to get a taxi to the airport he used his credit card at let's say dia then he used this credit card 14 hours 15 hours later in Tokyo Narita then he used his credit card again in Ho Chi Minh now let's say if for five hours later and you'd stitch the hours together a complex event system would be able to see that say ah the most likely outcome is Charles has traveled okay so the question was should Cardinal support this behavior natively and my belief is no there isn't being is I think this is actually an example of a very profitable and good DAP for people to build that X as a service provider to card ah so you'll have mark fellow contracts that require work holes or require feedback for them to be particularly useful for things that are connected to real-life events and there are going to be people who offer services to those contracts it is really sensible to abstract away those services to trusted servers or to adapt or to even in another layer control layer in the system that provides all these things and it's built in a particular way so a person can pay a fee for the reduction and reliance or trust on a particular in entity or individual there's also a notion of complex event systems being bespoke to a domain or being designed as a black box meaning that the code needs to be proprietary so there are protocols that people are considering like doing data analytics for example using order preserving encryption or a morphic encryption with some degree of acceleration and in those cases you can keep the trading algorithms or the event processing algorithm secret but it's an open and very complicated topic and it's one that people think a lot about there are projects like end or for example that are trying to tackle that that that's pretty interesting and fascinating people but if you're real passionate about I think it actually would be a great business to operate and it'd be really cool to see how that works with Marlo and then how that can actually make the financial space better and my personal belief is it would be a control layer it'd be a really cool system to augment Cortana and it's something that domain experts can deploy that's a good question Joe Rogan podcast from Tom cost love Joe Rogan love the intellectual dark web I listened to Sam Harris Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and others in that group regularly both on the left and the right it's really amazing to me that some of the smartest people who are given the freedom to engage in interact on a multi hour format and actually have a direct relationship with the consumers of the media so it's almost as if it's a conversation as opposed to a broadcast are also people who tend to be completely ignored by the mainstream media Joe Rogan probably has as many aggregate listeners and as much impact as Bill O'Reilly ever did or Anderson Cooper ever did yet for some reason media considers him to be an entertainer or a comedian the man is not the man is a guy with a huge following and who talks about really interesting things from lifestyle thing is like life extension and ketogenic diets to alternative tie it's like the carnivore diet or Consequences of veganism two other really interesting things like what does it like to be a CEO of a major company to sit down with a guy like Elon Musk for more than 15 minutes and really have a deep personal open-ended conversation with him or the time about like Jordan Peterson and try to understand what his experiences have been like as he's been brutalized by a very strange faction of identity politics people is tremendously valuable to society because these stories cannot and will not be told on television so I have a lot of respect for Joe I have a lot of respect for Jordan others sometimes agree of them sometimes disagree with them but I love the format and I think the format is insanely productive and effective and it's also becoming the format that people under the age of 40 are consuming there's a recent survey of truck drivers and night warehouse operators and other people but a lot of downtime a lot of sitting or you know a lot of sedentary work or there may be operating forklift no one talks to them for hours on end and a lot of these people more than 30 40 % of them consume podcasts so and they they listen to things like Joe Rogan so it's not just the heard I who has the PhD sitting with the luxury and his padded office the glass of sherry saying oh now let me be stimulated by the intellectual darkweb this is truly cutting across all economic zones and lines so this is think short answer is yes I would love to be on the Jill Rogan podcast it'd be a heck of a lot of fun to meet him talk to him spend some time with him I'd be fun to talk to Tim Ferriss it'd be fun to talk to sam Harris I think we do a lot of good there now in terms of the greatest bang for our buck I think would be probably more productive for me to be on that show once we have smart contracts and Shelley out the door because in addition to going on and being aspirational and telling the world about all the cool things we could do in the future I'd be able to say download the software look at the tutorials and today right here right now you can be building the future so you have to be pretty smart about when you go to large venues because you know people's attention span unfortunately is not what it used to be and we'll try that what happens after Cardinal 1.4 from Papadopoulos well papa card out of one point four so one point four is the first time we're actually rolling out code that I which Kade bill from formal specifications so that's a big milestone for us and boy were super excited about it and the dev cut off I believe has just happened today or tomorrow we had to get a few extra things in it QA process has begun and we're working like bats out of hell to try to accelerate that a little bit because I really would love to get it out soon so the next step is to or bores BFT the paper for that will be published at the end of the month and that's a halfway house protocol between what we need it now Sarek l didn't fully implement or abort the way it needed to be implemented to make it easy to move from or Boris to Genesis so we have to fill that end or Morris BST is a really simple easy way to do that for us so we have a plan we've already implemented it as a prototype and we've done simulations on it we have a great degree of understanding of how that protocol works fact we have five implementation efforts some on the scholar side some on the prototyping side some on Haskell side that are all independently looking at this so one aspect of the post one points where work will be or force B of T as a halfway house transition for us to get to shelling another dimension of that work will be decoupling the wallet backend which is currently connected to the Cardinal client to pull it off as an independent standalone product the advantage of that is we could take the Haskell wallet back-end that's built on verified formal code really really good Haskell code and connect it to the Russ client and then the rest client could have v1 API compatibility or you can actually take that with some modification and potentially you can connect it to a Bitcoin wallet or you know a Manero wallet or whatever that has a UTI accounting system that's parameter eyes'll and also it means that the wallet back-end can then have an independent release cycle to everything else so we can do what we've done with the restaurant with building manual transactions and offline transactions and extending that API for other parameters like delegation and so forth we can do that without being on the normal release cycles or for card aisle so those are going to be near-term holes that were working towards me and meantime we have three parallel teams working full-time on all of the Shelley related stuff someone delegation some on or Boris Genesis and other dimensions of that stuff and some on the new ledger rules you know some on how we're going to extend the UT Exocet to include Plutus and Marlow it's a humongous amount of work Duncan is going to be preparing some content some videos and our product marketers are going to be been kind of parsing down all of this stuff and trying to put it into an understandable roadmap for people so people get a pretty good sense of the scope and scale of Shelley Shelley what we thought was going to be this year civilly larger and that's why it's taken so much more time for us to very carefully think about it as larger in that the interdependencies and the the way that the software works you have to think super carefully about it it's not going to be necessarily a billion lines of code it's more just these things have to be very carefully rigorously thought about so that when we do deploy those protocols they work really well together and we don't run in the same situation we ran into in September of 2017 with the initial launch occurred on the good news is people weren't a lot faster now and we cut our QA time in half and the release cycles will only get faster processes are definitely getting better working with some good people on that luggage and Christoph and Penn Ford and we've already seen noticeable differences in software quality and strategy so Duncan it's go Vaughn reason Phil cop really doing great work the squad leaders look Matthias Vincent and others doing great work as well Vincent on rust Cardno is just extraordinary to see his progress that he's making and yeah we look forward to rolling things out there as quickly as we can so we have plan a a plan B the next versions will be on Horrors B of T and decoupling of components in preparation for Shelley and then Shelley tests net next and then after that it's it's basically Shelley decentralisation that very shortly thereafter tackle on some side chains extended UT EXO and Yelp ludus Marlowe and then KVM yella so a lot of stuff is coming soon and long long overdue are you still convinced a that market cap will reach a trillion I said I'd like a de to be the first cryptocurrency that reaches a trillion dollar market cap because my point behind that wasn't that it was at a trillion dollars my point was that it achieved the goal of being a financial operating system the only way that you can ever get to a cap that high is to be useful to the world and have hundreds of thousands of to millions to hundreds of millions of people doing things on a daily or near daily basis on your system from loans to insurance my goal is to get it there because the world needs it so I do believe we will get there let's take another one from the threads haha does Jeremy would run undercover operations of car Dada we barely hear about him which might be the only excuse I might think of cos hearing his intelligence and co physician jeremy is an interesting guy you know Jeremy and I knew him working together for like five years now and you know he's always the devil's advocate for everything I do is mr. checks-and-balances Jeremy takes a more private role and you know I'm the guy who always ends up getting pushed out to the public domain he got married and had kids and he's he's working hard though Jeremy is coming with me to Thailand he's gonna have some fun there with me and we're gonna probably do some presentations he tends to take care of things that if they don't get done properly would kill the company existential problems that require very delicate incredibly focused work and it can't really be delegated or entrusted to a manager or to an employee it's just too much responsibility and there's been several things in the history of our company that have required that level of focus in detail so that's what he tends to do it's a it's really the unsung role of the unsung job in the organization because it's thankless and silent and if you succeed well the organization keeps on living but if you fail the organization business so there's no upside but there's only downside and that's really something only a co-founder of a company can do so that's been his historical role he's also started doing more work on the product management side and building out product management for the company but to be frank RI which Kay wouldn't exist without Jeremy and card ah wouldn't exist without him so he's it is meaningful and important II as I am to the company it's not more so in some certain circumstances and I'm very lucky to have him as a co-founder so this is an interesting question is I which can work with DARPA the direct answer is no but when you do cryptographic research PL research or any of these things it's very common to see that funding for papers that you're jointly funding also comes from either the NSF or DARPA most recently promote who's a researcher out in University of Illinois urbana-champaign published a series of three papers Polly chard and paper on incentives and paper called spire which was based on as payment channels now all of these papers received funding for our IO HK but promote also got funding from the NSF and DARPA so occasionally you will see I which key related projects getting joint funding from other agencies now these projects are out in the open domain these projects do not have an electrical property associated with them it's out it's open source and these projects are published basically and viewable to the funders at the same time as they are to the general public so there is no secrecy or bias there our organization does not do clearance work I don't have to go to ask if don't have to file a sf-86 or anything like that and I intend on not doing clearance work at the moment it's it's just too much hassle we're also a global company we operate in 16 countries and we try to be politically neutral as we can be that said DARPA is a great funder of high-risk high-return projects and they are responsible for the creation of many interesting things from the Internet itself through the development of tcp/ip even Cerf and Bob Kahn to Siri through the kalo project cognitive assistant learns and organizes that was run from 2003 to 2008 by a Sarai international and a large cadre of scientists and there's probably a strong appetite at DARPA for APL and blockchain and smart contract play that could be as equally meaningful as kalo so that occurs there's no doubt that we would probably be involved in some because simply we have so many researchers some of which have already worked at that organization but it wouldn't be exclusively to us and we have no intention of participating at the moment on anything in the clearance side charles any plans to visit india yes I will come to India and 2019 okay let's take another one from the reddit because people took the time to throw all these questions in has ihk given any time of research into implementing a stable coin we certainly have and we really haven't gotten to the point where we're able to say anything public yet but we've talked a lot of people were attending a stable coin conference pretty soon like what the saga guys are doing but it's something I'll punt on but know that we are interested in it because it does need to exist in our system for us to be successful with lending and insurance and commerce I heard you mentioned at one point when Conda no is 100% complete you could basically attach eels to the computation layer and they could take advantage of the Cardinal blockchain well sure we could for Chios and attach it to our chain I don't think it's a particularly good idea for people to lose money in that Rube Goldberg machine but they want to do it someone could do it by the way is another great paper for people to read recently came out called Mad Max so if you googled Mad Max aetherium gas pricing something like that you'll see a paper that was submitted to Popol and the no whoops look excuse me it's a pl conference that it talks about for everything go wrong with the etherium gas model so gas economics is an interesting topic matter I see what else we got here and yes I will go to Australia as well we have several an Australian employees bruno paleo the head of our Enterprise Group is there Eric de Castro the head of Cardinal core is there and if we have a lot of friends out in Australia and some friends in New Zealand as well so it'd be nice to go out there trying to will tone vase still see card on Oh is a scam after Shelley the answer is yes but but tell it's been telling me that to my face for a long time I guess he's no longer asking me to go to jail he just says I should be banned from coding and from running a company but I actually like telling a lot I see him from time to time in person and we want smoke cigars together and Odessa Ukraine that was an interesting story his eye ohk considering is sending his contract with building Kharkov beyond guaranteed funding through 2020 the answer is if the Treasury system exists we will submit a ballot asking for additional funding and the community will get to decide that if we are to decentralize there cannot be a cult of personality there cap because toteal companies we can't have even if you like the guy somebody in power forever the whole point of creating things like term limits it's the whole point of creating things like checks and balances it's the whole point of creating diversity whenever you create something good people fork it people steal it like no one really cared about a theory until the theory was successful then everybody wanted to be a theory of it a lot of people forked it through and stole the code said hey look we're better ethereal similarly no one particularly cares about our proof of stake algorithm or other these things because you know it hasn't been fully deployed yet but what it is a lot of people are going to fork and a lot of people don't have a difference of opinion and actually some of those people might be a heck of a lot smarter than us and a heck of a lot more qualified than us to actually take the system to the next generation visionary leaders all have shelf lives and happen HP it's happening to Apple it happened to IPM it happened to Microsoft and we're no different so for a time we will be productive and capable of handling things the way they need to be handled but it is super important for the ecosystem to make sure that there is diversity in thought in execution so the first step there is to develop the Cardinal improvement proposal process and to get all the designs at the protocol and to form implementation independent specifications then we have a common reference of where are we at and where we'd like to go then the Treasury system comes and allows us to vote on funding of priorities marketing priorities development priorities entrepreneurial priorities and embedded in there is the simplicity notion of who should be the custodian to take us to the next place or custodians and there should be sufficient funding for multiple ones I which Kay will make the argument as we do to government's for grant funding like the European Union or NSF or others that we we ought to have a position in that collective of people who are contributing but it ought not be exclusive or the sole position it's merely one of many and if we can't provide value like the foundations not providing value at the moment in my opinion then you ought to be able to get rid of me and if you can't then that's a dictatorship if you can that's a democracy I like living in the latter not the former why no ledger what went wrong pretty simple those foundation things although there were some issues with Cardno itself that made it difficult to roll out ledger support we use a different elliptic curve 8250 519 we also used the way the software was written and made ledger interoperability a bit difficult but gone to the point where it's a firmware update and I think the first thing that's going to support ledger is going to be the Icarus platform so gyro and potentially infinite oh and then eventually it'll work its way backward into Daedalus after we've decoupled the wallet I've created the wallet a little bit to support me crystal addresses so when ledger very soon and thanks to your ROI being out and thanks to laser you're having a firmware update available when we get it before the end of the year it's it's hard to say because it's not completely in our in our wheelhouse ok last question come on let's make it a good one some crazy people in this tour a minute Nara sarin like mo she's good guy went to his office in Israel is his beautiful pictures tea jobs on the wall and he collects a lot of interesting memorabilia and it's a pretty entrepreneurial place I think me over Facebook and mentioned that the launch is coming soon so I'll call him talk to him ask him what's going on they are engineers have talked to our engineers and they've definitely looked at excuse me integrating the rest code but it's still an interesting open question of when how that supports gonna roll out Cindy looks like a really compelling interest in device last time I was in Japan I actually ran into some of those guys and they showed me the prototype and it's a phone and the back of it slides up like this and you have the hardware wallet up here it's actually an independent device from the phone so it's kind of like having a ledger built into your system so that's cool so when I hear more we might do some sort of joint announcement at the very least I'll let you guys know when I've had a chance to talk to him but I just haven't had a discussion with the syren guys since I was in Japan and at the moment they were preparing for launch of their phone and I know their engineers are talking to our engineers mostly asking questions about API is in the rush code okay thank you guys so much it's almost two hours now let's see here did I smoke anyway guys I live in Colorado we it's been legal there for ten years and it's not called the mile-high state for an ephah Canada legalized it they're way behind the curve man way behind it's like it's like adopting disco in the 80s it's too late go alright thank you guys so much I appreciate your time and I hope this MA was useful Cheers