1:05:13 to 2:07:40
Charles have you complained to Twitter about the impersonators I have complained to Jack himself an email format text message on Twitter I complain to that complain and I complain and I say Jack I have nearly a hundred thousand followers why the hell don't I have a verified status I will give you a copy of my passport I will fly to California and go to your house and hand you my passport for you too physically if you know si just give me a damn blue badge ma'am you gave Justin son a badge from Tron for God's sakes unfortunately I keep hearing the same answer which is verification was shut down last year and as a consequence you're just gonna have to wait for us to turn that back on and then we'll have a process for it there are some politics behind verification not related to our space more related to left versus right we're a certain right-wing people we're getting verified and I guess Twitter was concerned that that looked like an endorsement of all right people or something like that and they got heavy criticism from people on the left so they decided to do what all companies do when they get heavily criticized for something that doesn't produce value to hide in their shell so they just shut off verification so we'll get around to it again so anyway the net result of that is that every single time I post a tweet there are about 10 or 15 bots that post basically tweets on my tweet saying that I'm giving away ether I do not own any ether I have 0 ether historical fact I've never actually owned ether my entire life I was entitled 293,000 ether I didn't take it I told him give it to someone else so I've never owned either I have no ether to give away I mean if you're smart with a buck maybe you'd say I give away ADA or something ok cuz the company has some or uther classic but I've never owned ether in my entire life I have no ether to give away for the love of God you people but every time I post something there's 10 to 15 tweets with spots saying hey let's go ahead and give you some ether so ignore them they're not real they've gotten more sophisticated now they're impersonating me on telegram messaging people privately saying we're beta testing a wallet and give us some ADA to test it there's never underestimate the cleverness of these people so just use common sense I will never ask you to send me money I have plenty of money I'm okay I will never ask you for your private keys and I will never do personal tech support for you or ask you with a personal invitation for a beta test if I break that rule I will call you and send you a picture of myself or sign a message with my PGP key my PGP fingerprint is on my Twitter feed if at any time you think you're dealing with me and you want to verify Who I am ask me to send over a sound clip a picture or a signed message with my PGP key and I'll be happy to do that and a person who physically can't do that so use some common sense it's incredibly frustrating Twitter is just a bad platform it's not innovative it's old it really needs a refresh they need to think more carefully about it and you know slack has its issues too we originally created the Cardno and a theorem classic communities in slack we had thousands of members we ended up abandoning those platforms because we had the exact same issue people would create BOTS box what impersonate certain key members and send everybody messages saying give us ADA or give us either give us your money use my ether wallet that was the big scam it was not my ether while it was a fake wallet and that's just reality that we live in it's nothing new in the 1990s people from India would call people saying that they're from Microsoft and your computer's about to end and you need to give them your credit card number for them to fix the viruses on your system they still do this scam 20 years later welcome to people who have no life and they want to use their surplus time to steal from you so anyway that's what it is good news is we have tools to verify ourselves including digital signatures Craig Wright does apparently know how to use them I do so ask me for a signature if you think it's me and you're not sure okay card Oded a card yay card on a debit card let's talk about that card on a debit card is not an io HK initiative it's a cardinal foundation initiative what ended up happening was in the early days of Cardno there was a good commitment that card on a foundation got from a firm in Europe to provide debit cards to people and they thought that that would be a wonderful thing but then Visa and MasterCard got much more restricted on the prepaid debit card market and some regulatory changes happen that made these things more difficult so it delayed the Foundation's progress occasionally I check in but the foundation is leading that effort so we're not involved directly in that I'd love to see one if one exists it'd be very easy for us to integrate it into cardano's via Daedalus just like we're doing a ledger integration into deathless four ledger so when those things are available we'll be happy to work with the foundation to get them integrated into our our clients but at the moment I don't have any information that's a that's a project the foundation is completely in charge of and we don't tend to get involved in those types of projects okay did you do let's see here you ah geo stamping and the ziane relationship so let's talk about that so Zn is an interesting firm it's relied by a guy named Michael Minelli and Michael is he actually has a Wikipedia page if you're interested about it went to Harvard and London School of Economics is a very elegant guy lives in London he's a member of the City of London and he runs a consultancy that has for more than two decades worked with the banks called Zn and he's written a lot of great things in fact I think I don't have it here it looks like I have it on my bookshelf outside uh there he even wrote a wonderful book called the price of fish smart guy so Michael Parsons is a very good friend of Minelli they've known each other for a long time and Minelli is always interested in doing research in the cryptocurrency space and so while I which Kate does a lot of hardcore research into things like protocol design and security and Zika snarks and these things we don't think so much about layered you know uses of that technology as much as we should like what are the law and policy implications or you know how would you build a geo standing system or these types of things so the foundation approached again to basically write a collection of reports I think they come out every month or two months and every one of them is topical like ones on quantum computing and ones on geo stamping and so forth endurance and each report kind of covers what's going on in space and how you know best practices from legacy industries can be used in the blockchain industry for these particular things or perhaps an innovative new protocol idea the hope is that these reports could eventually be turned into layer 2 layer 3 protocols or to DAPs that could run on card ATO and it's a way to kind of dream up how do we make card on a more useful so all the reports are open they're on the Zn website I think the foundation also releases them on their website and highly encourage reading them they're usually written by domain experts and they're pretty comprehensive they give me anywhere from 10 to 60 pages and they come out pretty frequently there's also a collection of events that distributed futures has where the foundation shows up and it's able to network with people in the city of London and network with the brighter Cheil community in the UK and those events have been tremendously successful and attended by some pretty prominent people from all weeks of life from politicians the bankers to others so given its cost and given the output it looks like a pretty good program and it's nice to have these types of things around it's like a little cherry on the top of the cake okay what do you think will be the Year kirtana to replace ether a smart contract platform and for IC o---- fundraising i cos are going through a slight challenge at the moment in that the art of using an ICO has been perfected we have the RC 20 token there's dedicated firms that charge you anywhere between 8% the 30% of the offerings basically structure the sale give you a saft agreement all this stuff so the act of doing everything that we figured out how to do for theorem has been franchise while abled and is a science now people know how to do it really well and etherium is used as the majority platform because it's the most secure it's the largest and it's the best understood and the best tooling exists there we get all that tooling for free with the ke VM so anything is built for theory we runs on our system but it runs faster safer and better so if people are just doing an apples-to-apples we'd be great platform for that but we're entering ICO 2.0 which is the notion of the security token so what's happening is we're starting to see a crystallization of regulatory understanding of the IC o---- to the point where regulatory agencies are creating bespoke regulations for IC OS so what that means is instead of saying well we'll get around to it later later has come and you're either going to be something regulated by the CFTC and if for example in the United States the commodities future Trading Commission or the Securities Exchange Commission which is for securities so whether your utility token which will look like a commodity or a security token which looks like a stock or something like that so what's probably going to up happening is that people who do I cos moving the future will issue a security token and those will be traded on special domains and have special exemptions whether it be reggae through the JOBS Act reg D through accredited investors or a gas for abroad and when they're traded they're traded on regulated exchanges of Broker Dealer licenses and we're starting to see those materialize like coinbase and t0 and so forth then if the token has real utility and it actually really does become decentralized and the person who sold it is no longer necessary to maintain it like what's recently happened with aetherium the token may become a non security and as a consequence of being a non security it would then be regulated by a different agency in this case probably the CFTC for the United States so it could then be traded on the global Bitcoin exchanges that we see like that stamp and bit ryx and finance and the rest of the guys who don't have specialized licenses or are pursuing those licenses and then you wouldn't need to do all the things you need to do with an IPO or a normal securities offering or any of these normal exemptions so there's a whole industrial move towards building capabilities to facilitate that security token ecosystem and some of those are building bespoke smart contracts some of those are issuing new types of token standards to go up beyond the ERC 20 some of those are building custodial services and so forth the whole lot of things and so forth now when those things eventually materialize and build out I think Cardinal by nature of its architecture will probably be a really compelling platform to capture that part of the marketplace but it's gonna be a huge market and there's going to be many many players in that marketplace on both the issuance the distribution and the trading of these things then when it escapes and it becomes a its own token I think Cardona will also be a very compelling platform because our counting layer is being built as a multi asset layer so it's kept simple on purpose but it's really really good to keep your base token Oh basically fast and efficient and not bottle necked and then you could use that based open to connect to an overlay protocol in our architecture we call cordon o CL but using our site change protocol you just as easily can connect that to another overlay protocol for example wharves is deploying as an ER C 20 token on aetherium but you don't actually get any utility or use out of that you have to send it to an overlay system that actually runs its own BF T and it does all magic and it's doing its own thing so the cream filling the magic all the good stuff happens off chain or in a different system and the main chain because it's secure and reliable is used for counting but it's expensive so on an apples-to-apples basis we're gonna be cheaper faster more secure better by nature of the way we've designed things so I think in those use cases cardano's very compelling for these tokens to stay resident there as opposed to building their own block chaining trying to construct their own network effect so I think in both environments the enclaves that will be constructed for security tokens to facilitate the next generation of icos that are better from a regulatory and tax perspective and from a place for these tokens that are issued to live until they're used to feel empower their dabs that run a side chains both of those marketplaces were going to be quite competitive with moving in 2019 2020 as these capabilities start turning on still early days and honestly what I really despise is this idea of vendor lock-in I mean if you look at the days of the Internet in the 1990s it was like you're a web developer you had to write broken code to work with Internet Explorer in ER ie6 was such a bad product and and you could either say I'm gonna follow CSS standards or I'm not gonna follow CSS standards but I'm not gonna follow it because I have to get my web site to render on this thing that 90% of the people live on and then to make matters worse Microsoft tried to get people into a development paradigm called ActiveX which was horribly insecure and was very bad for everybody but it also locked people Internet Explorer and that we see companies running around and say use aetherium or use a OS or use iota or use card on oh and wait at the end of the day if your adapt developer you're not in love with infrastructure infrastructure is a service provider to you it's an enabler for you as a DAP developer to carry out your vision and to maximize the benefit to your customers if you are told that you now are a slave to the infrastructure that you're locked into how are we any better than the closed Gardens of Windows and Internet Explorer from the 1990s we're making as an industry the same mistakes again so one of the things I really really really care about is saying allow people to treat infrastructure like they treat Web Services for example if you're building an application you can deploy it on Amazon Web Services or Rackspace or another vendor and you make that decision based upon what is the best in terms of security and cost and utility to my customers and if it turns out that you were wrong you redeploy it on other infrastructure and that's not as hard as you'd think similarly if you have a smart contract you have a DAP you should be able to run that DAP on that best ledger for that DAP and maybe multiple Ledger's because you're doing different things and they're consuming that way so the whole point of the Daedalus model that we've developed for card ATO is this idea of an application ecosystem and it's blockchain agnostic so you'll be able to deploy that on aetherium or deploy that on cardona you want to go live in hell deploy Neos you can go do that and that's a decision you make based upon what's best for your customers and if you make the wrong choice you should be able to lift up and go into a different ecosystem and it does not compromise your customer experience or else what we've done is just created a completely new 1990s scenario we've created another Microsoft congratulations were decentralized but actually centralized we don't have gatekeepers but we actually do have gatekeepers it's not the ethos as a space it's not what people have signed up for so to me I think that that's an a very important point that is often missed and in the tribalism the space and because we sometimes have financial incentives to say things people say things to try to encourage you to do things that aren't good for your ultimately your goal in your customer base okay no Cassie what else here who would you rather punch in the face dan Livermore Roger ver well Roger is actually a pretty cool guy I've never had a fight with him and I like Roger I mean I have disagreements about be it between cash and other things mostly about the purpose of it but at the end of the day I've never really viewed him as a bad actor and it's you know I'd story often tell about Roger one time years ago he said hey let me show you something special and he went to a barbershop a coffee shop in a restaurant all back-to-back-to-back and in each case he got them to accept bitcoin it's where roger came from he's that good and he's pretty magical and his ability to get people to adopt things I think that he perhaps hasn't fully thought out the consequences of bitcoin cash or the consequences of the ecosystem he's built and also it's incredibly regrettable that he's working with or associating with Craig Wright who I believe is a sociopath he's a bad actor but at the end of the day I don't have any issue with Roger the other thing is Roger is really good at martial arts and he can kick my ass so I really want one out of punch that guy in the face as for Dan larimer dan is Dan so let's see what else we have here what will happen new mergo I which kick contract for developing Cardno by 2020 we will have a by 2020 we will have a fully operational Treasury that and I'll stick around until that's done so if it bleeds in the 2021 we'll keep working till that's done and at that point there's going to be specifications a card ah no improvement proposal process competing clients written in different languages by different development teams it'll be very decentralized ecosystem and I ohk would love to continue doing research and engineering but you the ADA holders will be able to make that choice so we'll submit a funding proposal to keep the contract going but you get to decide whether that happens and that's how it should be at the end of day engineers work for you the owners of the pro call and if it's truly a decentralized protocol the holders of Aida own that protocol so they ultimately should make the decision of who are the best teams to carry that protocol forward furthermore you need more than one because you achieve diversity and resilience by having more than one you know you don't want a situation where you have key man risk where if someone gets hit by a bus someone gets compromised someone decides to start eating mercury on a regular basis and goes insane that just makes no sense because if that occurs you all of a sudden have lost your protocol so so it's very important that the community have the tools and the capital to be able to make sure that there's diversity in the development and there the thought innovation and a very strong foundation to get performance to get all these layer 2 technologies where they need to go and then finally to get all the governance and the other components put into the system some of these can be done in parallel some of them require some sequential work some as incredibly difficult research other is just an engineering problem where we have to think carefully like with the UT Excel wallet about how we want to do it and why we're doing that and so forth so that's what's gonna happen we're still going to be around and we're going to be asking for additional funding but you get to decide whether alright see here we you do a lot of good interesting questions Japanese crypto question see what else we got here it's usually easier to do this when you have two people because one guy follows the questions and then picks out some so there's a continuous flow next time I should probably do that all right well anyway Japanese exchanges does come up a lot you know Japan is a frustrating market I've been there a lot I actually spoke with some of the ministries I spoke to Mehdi and mystery of internal affairs last time I was there and we'll just keep talking to him in the early days there was no regulation you just do whatever the hell you wanted to do and obviously that created a lot of big problems and people got a bit too aggressive and ambitious so what ended up happening is that they decided to regulate the market and they passed a very aggressive law to regulate the exchanges implicit in that was also a notion of restrictions and token listings so basically they said not only are we going to tell the exchanges how to operate for the best interest of the people we're also going to tell the exchanges what tokens they can trade that's fine because then you have some rules to follow and you go follow them and you try to convince people that you're good but the problem is it's never actually been clear what the standards are to be listed on exchanges and at the moment there's actually D listings happening privacy coins for example are not faring so well in Japan at some point Japanese exchanges and the FSA the regulatory body that's responsible for this will reach some sort of broker compromise about how listings are going to occur and at that point I think ADA will fare very well because on every single metric we look good there's tons of transparency and credibility in the project the technology's world-class we have independent auditing there's oversight in the project use of funds is extremely reasonable and very transparent is a huge public team that has a multi-year commitment it's extremely hard to find anything that has an equivalent level of commitment to producing value as our team there's certainly a lot of people doing interesting things but at the end of the day I think we're the best a little biased but at the end of the day I do think we're the best we also have a strong ties to Japan we have a research lab at Tokyo Institute of tech a lot of people in Japan love EDA and it would be fundamentally unfair for the Japanese government to tell them that the only way they can trade ADA is to go abroad to exchanges Japan cannot regulate because they're abroad so I think that will fare well it's just unfortunately because of the coin check incident because of the multiple SROs because of ambiguity in the law and regulatory uncertainty people are following a very conservative approach and there's really isn't a financial incentive or a rush for the FSA to move quickly they're going to move in a very systematic and methodical way and to decide what's best for them and for the people of Japan my hope is that the other day we farewell but we'll find out and we'll do our best to try to convince people in that jurisdiction that ADA should be part of the marketplace it would be extremely unfortunate to just have ripple either in Bitcoin because those are safe tokens for whatever the hell the reason but we might end up in that reality or we might end up in a reality where Japan is a world leader which lists hundreds of tokens it has tons of innovative projects the jury's out on which side is going to to happen and we'll let you know as we learn what do you think of Jackson Palmer creator of dogecoin is skepticism of Cortana when he said at a video that your white paper was a lot of fluff which part the proofs the many papers the peer-review process which is all public the the fact that we actually bothered to to build real security models and actually think of things in very foundational ways I mean forgive me I'm I'm not so good at taking a shiba inu and building an entire ecosystem around that you know cryptographers or cryptographers and engineers or engineers and marketers or marketers and they all do different things the point of the foundations of Cardno was to go to the most qualified people we could find in the world and get them to care about solving the problems we need to solve for Cardno to be stable and reliable that doesn't port into solving every single problem all at once it means you have to follow a process it means you have to define basic things like what is a blockchain what is proof of state can it ever even be secured under even unrealistic assumptions and then if you're going to make those assumptions realistic what do you give up in that process and can you still preserve your security model as you do that we have invested over 2.2 four million dollars written five papers in three years on just the or borås threat and we've involved ourselves as institutions eight I think eight different universities at this point people who at those universities we've gone to Europe cryptic crypto and euro crypt again and we'll be at other conferences soon showing off this technology and we're only about halfway through the research threat so when I read things like he said well there's just a lot of fluff in that paper first I'd like to ask him does he actually even understand what the hell is in the paper because it wasn't written for him it was written for academics second did he even bother to take a look at the other things that we've done like for example does he know how to build a UT excel wallet well he forked Bitcoin Satoshi came up with that did he well we didn't know how to build one so we figured it out and rewrote a formal specification for those things and that's what we do on the engineering side and that specification is so involved it took sebastian two hours to just do an overview of it and it's a beautiful piece of work and that's how we operate we're just walking our way through the space finding the problems that we need to solve and getting the right people onto those problems and solving them in the most rigorous academic engineering smart way possible and we write paper after paper after paper and not every paper solves every problem and not every paper is useful for every context but once we've solved something and we're confident about that that's granite its bedrock and we're starting to really seize great fruits being produced at this point we're very confident that or borås Genesis is a wonderful consensus algorithm to run a cryptocurrency with and what you'll see our delegation and our incentives paper these three things together are everything that you would need to run something much better than Bitcoin much more performance than Bitcoin and it doesn't cause billions of dollars a year to run furthermore we're very confident in the code we've written very confident in the designs that we've come up with and we know where the deficits are we know where the bodies are buried and we know how to exhume them and put them in their proper places and we have a process for that in every single day we tirelessly work towards that process we keep innovating we keep growing we keep bringing people in we went from two people to a hundred and sixty people many of which hold PhDs many of which have strong professional reputations and have published hundreds of paper the programming language were writing this in the guy who created the programming language works for us and we're a lot of fluff and this is what I was talking about earlier about the tribalism and the noise in the vitriol in the space people see something and they say this doesn't immediately solve all my problems this doesn't immediately make everything great this hasn't somehow spins so magical that it invalidates every other project and therefore it's fluff yeah and to me that's just absurd you know the point is we're rebuilding the entire world financial system the one we have was not created overnight we inherited that system that was meticulously constructed decade by decade by decade by decade by people who came before us it is beyond arrogant to say that we can come in and rebuild this entire system in a single paper with a single codebase it's just it's just so insane what you do instead is you construct a process that is scaleable that is capable of welcoming new people in from different wakes of life different skill sets different cultures different languages that is capable of identifying the problems you need to solve to have a better system coming up with reliable solutions for those problems and then having a feedback mechanism to verify that those solutions work and are proper and then once you've done that you've made progress and you do it again and again and again it's like the scientific method everything we have in life that's good has come from the ability to make mankind stateful to preserve what we've come up with and to be able to change things that we don't like instead of having to accept the status quo and cryptocurrencies are no different at all so I like our progress I like our process I like the things we've accomplished I think that a lot of people are really starting to understand that this is a much bigger more ambitious project than they originally intended and they're starting to realize that we have an incredibly strong commitment to doing things in a smart way the other thing is this is not an IO HK project this is a collective project predictable network solutions works on this tweak works on this F p-complete works on this well type works on this Allied testing works on this Kubik works on this runtime verification works on this amore go works on this the Cardno foundation works on this 8x works on this amongst others and that's where we're at today the processes that we have will continue skel and one day we will have hundreds and then thousands of companies unified by peer-review formal methods and a very systematic rigorous way of going about things and eventually a decentralized form of governance it will take decades for us to perfect it and for the system to work well but it's the perfect system to build the world's next financial stack that's the point that's why we've invested so much time and effort into all of these things so with all due respect that's what we're doing if you don't like it there are many other options on the marketplace that are better suited for you if you do like it welcome aboard grab a shovel African countries oh this is nearest dear to my heart so I went to Ethiopia to Addis Ababa and I went to Kigali in Rwanda and boy we had a great time we really enjoyed we really enjoyed talking to a lot of really interesting people and I learned a lot you know for example coming to Ethiopia to Addis Ababa I didn't realize that the coffee industry there is like as close to Game of Thrones as you can get and you have to be really careful with who you talk to it you take pictures with and so forth because it's almost like House Targaryen and House Lannister and house dark and so forth then I was like whoa okay but it's very old industry it's very prominent industry and it controls basically a large chunk of the country's economy about a million and a half farmers do nothing but coffee production so we had a lot of great discussions with the mystery of science and tech and we had a lot of great discussions with leaders living the World Bank and others who were embedded in Ethiopia about what would be low-hanging fruit for us to actually get a high impact low resource pilots that we could run showcasing the value of blockchain technology some of which could run on a permissionless ledger like card on oh and some of which could run on a per mission ledger like things like hyper ledger fabric or enterprise card on oh and so forth so in Ethiopia basically we agreed to host a class like we did in Barbados and Athens and have that class basically invite recent graduates from Ethiopian universities to sit down for two months and to learn lots about how to rope write code in Haskell and then if they're really good we'll offer them a job at i/o HK and then we'll put them onto a blockchain projects either permissioned or permissionless the ministry was very progressive they said not only do they want to do this class they wanted it to actually be all women what you said okay that's interesting let's go do it so we we agreed as assuming that they can source the candidates and we're already starting to send personnel from abroad into Ethiopia to begin preparations for that class it looks like the soonest we'll be able to run it will be October and it'll probably run to the end of the year we're going to incorporate a local subsidy in Ethiopia and artists and on the backs of the course the really good ones will hire and that team will work on blockchain based projects we'll probably do a pilot with that team in something involving supply chain management with coffee production it's a great really low-hanging fruit amazing industry to think about and there's a lot of return there which could touch pretty much everything from micro-insurance to microfinance to a lot of hacker tech revolutions some IOT stuff some AI stuff and so forth so that's going to be a fun jurisdiction plan and we have some great partners on the ground and John O Connor will make some community updates at some point about progress that's been made he's our director of African operations and he's embedded in Ethiopia and lives in honest three weeks every month and goes back to London for a week his family in both places in terms of Rwanda when I went there for vision Africa and I had a chance to talk to Kagame and other people it was a very interesting conference we we met a lot of really unique people I think there were leaders from over 10 or 15 African countries there and we got a sense that Rwanda is the fastest moving of all the African countries in terms of its agility and ability to adopt new ideas it's almost like the Singapore of Africa that said it's very small jurisdiction in a very small population relative to eat the OPI Ethiopia is about a hundred million people the AU is there it's it's got strong trading partnerships of Kenya and Nigeria and other large jurisdictions and much larger economy relative so Rwanda really looks like a good place to do fast pilots and basically get all the kinks and bugs worked out and get them localized and acceptable whereas Ethiopia looks like a larger growth market as does Nigeria and Kenya so both of them have their place in purpose and we'll probably be running things in both jurisdictions and we'll make specific announcements and these aren't the only two African countries will be in Kenya is probably the furthest along in terms of blockchain tech and there's some good entrepreneurs there like BIP ASA Nigeria also has probably one of the largest IT groups of people in Lagos so we'll definitely drop by there and have some fun but Africa is very important to I ohk and we're gonna be really scaling up African operations but my number one priority is getting Cardno to a better state so that takes priority and precedent over our evolution in the African market but long term I think that's the place where Cardno really has a chance to shine because we can show off a lot of cool tech like offline off chain payments using trusted hardware that's where these things like these private NPCs make a lot more sense it also gives us a chance to start exploring ancillary technology like incentivize mesh nets we even publish the paper on that called Mars so that's that's something I'd highly recommend you read it came from Bernardo David so we're definitely gonna push hard in that jurisdiction and we're definitely gonna you know have a lot of fun in it but it is something that we have to enter in cautiously and systematically and it's probably going to take about three to five years to build up reasonable presence so a lot of the output and returns will not occur until about 2020 to 2025 I'd say in that range but that's okay you know you have to be humble and you have to listen and you have to grow Carano ATMs so ATMs in general pretty cool space so there's a lot of software that has to be written to make items viable you can have a good server client model and we were really really hindered because we made some poor choices in the beginning of card oh no and one of the vendors that we worked with made some incredibly poor design choices that were almost recovered from but have really slowed things down but we kind of built a parallel track of code and we've written out a rust library and we've I can't spoil the surprise but come August there's gonna be something announced that's awesome for the like client the mobile client and the ATM type client so look out for that in terms of card on Oh ATMs in Japan there was a third party partner that that was keen on doing that and they wanted to deploy 50 ATMs prior to 2020 and they've already deployed some Bitcoin ATMs in the jurisdiction and we answered a lot of technical questions about how to support Cardno and gave recommendations about the architecture but we don't physically own those devices and we don't operate them so we're not sure how they've been deployed and when and if 8a supports going to be turned on but it would be nice to see that said we're really keen to investigate an open-source ATM design for Africa and we think that there's a lot of innovation that can happen there to create a low-cost ATM in the two to five hundred dollar price range because if you're talking about cryptocurrency adoption amongst the people who don't have it they need a cash in cash out point so yes you can send Bitcoin or ADA or ether to a made from a made in London to her mother in Manila well what is the mother going to do with it she needs a point to exchange it and sell it and if that exchange point takes a 20 or 30 percent premium then you're no better than a remittance transaction in fact you're worse because you're actually dealing with a more exotic more volatile asset with less liquidity than she would get if she got a Western Union transaction so if you had ATMs and these were reasonably well proliferated and they were run by independent merchants the fees would probably converge three to five percent over a period of time which is much better than the 15% remittance side of things so we do have a trusted hardware lab that we're building at the BTL the blockchain technology lab up at university of edinburgh it's led by vasily caecus and there's some joint funding from huawei in that lab and part of the things that lab is going to be looking into longer term our open source hardware solutions fullfil on the trusted hardware side and also for things like ATMs and key management so we'll create a reference design for that at some point and our hope is to see people build that by the way it's if you have a two hundred to five hundred dollar price point it's actually not hard to build two or three thousand of these and just give them away to small business owners the harder part is understanding can you get them to operate off-grid like how much would it cost for a satellite uplink and could you use micro satellites or mesh nets to be able to piggyback on to the main network and if there's a trusted hardware component even if they're asynchronous when they do reconnect you can get reliable and honest information assuming there's some finality in the chain so there's still a lot of technological challenges there but I do think we can overcome those particular challenges another big thing in Africa is so old saying batteries tend to grow legs and walk away and ATMs are no different satellite transceivers are no different so so you also have to think very carefully about where the deployment targets are specifically for Japan that was done by a third party and I don't follow that too closely I know some of my crew have seen the ATMs that are supposed to have for a to support but III haven't personally used them myself so I couldn't could let you know the debit card ATM stuff that's infrastructure separate from the things I which Kate works on or thinks about [Music] when lambo you know I always wonder why Lamborghini you know I Drive a Cadillac I have an XTS 2014 XTS it's great car got it for like twenty five thousand dollars highly recommend it's got magnetic suspension system it's got great brakes leather all throughout the seed has got a Bose sound system and it's 22 speakers he's talked about Lamborghini you know it's $200,000 for herecan or you know a gr doe is about a hundred thousand 150,000 you know your Aventador is probably 300k or more and Myrcella goes like 250 and then at the end of day you have a car that you're not going to drive more than a thousand miles a year that collects dust and it cost you $5,000 to change the oil if your brakes go bad those Brembo brakes are like 25 grand so you know why my Lambo why not something else and if you're gonna get a high-performance sports car then why not something interesting like a Ford GT or a Camaro you know by American there's some good cars there have you seen the Corvettes lately come on guys win Cadillac ct-6 the new 2019 ct6 550 horsepower twin turbo v8 and those turbos are right in the engine there's no lag with them and a 10 speed transmission thinking man's car okay in Indonesia and Amer go Amer go has a lot of great partnerships they're based in Singapore and Hong Kong and they have offices in Japan Vietnam Malaysia Indonesia and vias so they make great partnerships all around and where and when we can work with them we do they're really keen to do something in Taiwan and they're really keen to do something in both Malaysia and Indonesia and they already have some great contacts there and what's exciting is these are incredibly high population jurisdictions that are very malleable Indonesia is several hundred million people used to live in Jakarta Malaysia is also in the same population density and these are remittance countries so there's a ton of innovation that you'd like to do on the payment system side and on the lending and in the insurance side in particular there's also big agricultural side so all the Agrotech work that we're doing in Ethiopia could potentially be ported there so I think a Mirko is very prescient in building good relationships in those jurisdictions and what we do is we talk about well capabilities and we ask them what capabilities do you guys need and what capabilities are we constructing and it helps us inform the roadmap so that we can better address the capabilities moving forward but you'll have to address those questions specifically to a mergo about the particulars strategy [Music] Porsche you know the 918 is pretty nice isn't it Creek right guys want me to talk about Craig right now we're gonna go down that road see Aaron Labs partnership there is going quite well actually I talked to them when I was in Japan their guys have already started talking about integration into the Finny four-car Donnell I actually saw one of the Finney's they brought a sample from their labs in Israel to Japan and it's really cool it's a cell phone and it actually has a trusted hardware module here that you slide up and so when you're doing things you push a button on it to authorize the transaction it's almost like having a ledger plugged into your phone so it will natively support ADA and we're just trying to figure out what's the best way of doing that right now our hope is to reuse everything that we've constructed for ledger support and put it in for the for the Phinney but there's some architectural things we have to think really carefully about with them so we are actively discussing that with their engineers but once it's all said and done you guys can get if any and that Phinney can be used to store your ADA in a very secure way so you can write your recovery words and put them in a vault somewhere like a safety deposit box and you can have it on your phone and you ever lose the phone you can always restore it and otherwise you have a really easy mobile light wallet to be able to keep things so so will keep you advised on that one I think the Finney release date is October given the nature of their cycles what will likely happen is they'll do a firmware update to the TPM to support ADA because we probably won't make the October launch on that but we might legio support should be coming out right around that time where I'm with card on a 1.4 if we can reuse a lot of that infrastructure it might be optimal I suspect what they're gonna do is run the rust code on their on their module not the Haskell code so we'll find out more about that as time permits but well we'll keep you updated trip to Israel you know Israel's great we went there for Yura crypt and yura crypt is just fun and it's actually I think the first time you're equipped I've ever been held at Israel it was quite controversial because the Iranian cryptographers couldn't make it there but I also had a chance to visit Moshe and his guys and I met with the sarin labs people the saga people the orbs people the Endor people there's some good projects and the interesting projects and what amazed me is the ability to innovate without having to spend a lot so while some of these projects are well capitalized they're not actually expending a huge amount of money to execute and they have some very good talent and so Israel is as it's always been it's a huge innovation hub it's basically an oasis in the desert because of the hard work of the people who live there and the fact that we're in a new industry the cryptocurrency industry and no way changes the the commitment they have say we will about the politics it's a it's an innovation spot and will continue to be an innovation spot so a lot of people there were hungry they have a very strong commitment to doing interesting things and they really want to partner with everybody especially if those partnerships produce value so in a way that was incredibly fun because I sometimes have challenges partnering with people for whatever political reasons or in some cases like coin desk people go out of their way to just be dicks and so so it was nice to go to a place where people cared about the work and people cared about executing the roadmap and realized that you have to have strategic partners to be able to do that so Israel was quite successful and we'll go back from time to time the other nice thing about Israelis is they're willing to travel so you don't even have to go to Israel they'll come to you like I met with the Syrian guys in Japan for example okay I have enough time for one more question so let's let's have a good one come on guys hey Zeus you know Tasos is a really interesting a really really really interesting project you know it's one of those examples of where you have great people in a certain domain in this case Arthur is a very good engineer he's very bright guy and they don't actually know the other side very well at all they don't actually understand the business side or open source development but they think that that's easy so what they do is they structure something as an engineer would and then they say okay well a company here company here company here raise all this money get all these partners and capital pools here some goes here some goes here and it's a system right so if the system is all put together and these things are done huzzah and it all just works and then they say well what about people oh who cares about people people are fungible so just put whoever here and put whoever here and we don't really need real people we'll just hire them you know whatever we need to hire 10 people here at Hydra ten people there and that's what they did they put very bad people and key roles and they structured something that seemed from the outside to me to be designed to minimize liability at the expense of consumer protections and ability to execute okay and they paid a terrible terrible price for that in that the people that they put into key positions we're not vetted properly and not given the right controls and checks and balances to be able to execute or wash out so the project went through a lot of pain and a lot of heartache and this is really unfortunate because tezo's actually is doing some interesting things Mick liquidity are very interesting the use of a camel is actually a very interesting choice and there's a lot of innovation that can come they're starting to partner with the right people and if left to their own devices and you said all the drama of the sale the size of the offering the incentives behind the offering and if you were just to do an airdrop of Bitcoin and say this is Tasos I think a lot of people would would look at the project very positively and they would say that there's a lot of really interesting things here but unfortunately you cannot look at these projects in isolation you have to look at them with respect to everything that's happened and then the ecosystem upon which the project's lived in and projects like Tasos z/os and others all suffer from the same common sin which is they raise too much money you do not need two hundred million dollars to build a cryptocurrency even something is sanely complicated as Cardinal you do not need this kind of money you do not need a billion dollar gap fund or VC you don't need any of these things it's absurd if you look at some of the best venture capitalists in the world like John doar 192 I POS invested in Google invested in Intel the guy is is just walks on water he's a genius and he's he's really one of the best if you came to him and said for a completely new ecosystem that's very fragile very young completely new project we're gonna put four billion dollars in it would you like a billion dollars to go run a venture fund for that he would look at you like you're green eyed monster because at the end of the day all he knows that there is no responsible way to be able to invest that money and all you'd be doing is just distorting salaries I mean there were people who went to John like Steve Jobs he went to John and said I'm creating the iPhone we're gonna have applications on it I'd like some venture capital to exist for people to build cell phone apps this is a very new concept they didn't put a billion dollars into it and this was Apple and Steve Jobs and the iPhone okay and there's a track record there and there's definitely a mass market whereas yoson kaizo seem much much smaller so the first common said I think is they were over funded and as a consequence of overfunding people don't talk about the technology the vision the mission the goals the dreams like we did with Bitcoin because there was no money in the beginning with Bitcoin the only thing we had was dreams and a mission they talked about how do I get my hands on a chunk of that massive amount of money that's just sitting there the second original thin is that somewhere along the way you have to learn that you're not the smartest person in the room you're not brilliant you have to listen to people my company is filled with people much smarter than me and much more capable than me and I love that because I can learn from them and because I can trust them to do things I could never do throughout my career maybe one day if I spent ten years I'd be a decent cryptographer I'd be a decent one not a good one and I have people in my company who are exceptional ones we have spent 20 years at that so why in God's name don't you just give that stuff to them and let them do their job and then you can negotiate how that's going to benefit the ecosystem as a whole one of the problems that I've always had was Tasos interacting with Arthur and his team has been that I feel like they just think that they know the whole world and they have it all figured out no matter what advice you give them doesn't matter it's talking to a wall they've figured it out and it's the same for Dan Larimer and it's the same for a lot of these guys like Craig right they all seem to be cut from a common cloth of we know more than everybody else and we know the future and you're just gonna sit back and watch us give you the future Steve Jobs thought he knew the future and he was fired from Apple he thought he knew the future with Lisa he's thought he knew the future with next computers and every single time he released these things they were always too late too expensive and they really weren't what they promised to be and it was only after he worked was John Lasseter and the guys from Pixar and he just kind of got his ass reamed to him for 10 years that he actually learned the value of listening and learning and when he started doing that he was able to do some very amazing things like when he came back to Apple in 1997 it was dying they were literally months away from bankruptcy and he had to do something that Steve Jobs in his 20s could never do he had to call up Bill gay and make a deal with him and convince him to put millions hundreds of millions of dollars into Apple to keep it alive he had to make Internet Explorer the default browser for Apple he had to have Bill Gates appear on a stage behind him on a giant screen talking over him like bills won but he had to do that because he knew that was the only way to save the company and it was the only thing he could do to give him the moral authority to go and renegotiate lots of employment contracts it was not easy in 1997 at the height of the you know the frothing of the.com boom to keep your employees imagine when you have a guy your company who's a world-class engineer and you're paying him a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year because you've cut a salary eight times and his stock options are worthless having a friend in the valley say that he can make four hundred thousand dollars plus options to go to that guy and tell him he has to take another pay cut and that's what Steve did and he did it successfully and now apples what it is today and he did that because he had humility and the ability to listen and he created moral authority that's missing and a lot of these projects it their all incentivized by the wrong things and they've built very strong cults of personality around them if you want to see what true humility is just go to youtube and enter in Steve Jobs Apple 1997 Bill Gates or some search parameter like that and watch the video you'll see Bill behind him you'll see Steve getting booed on a stage by his own people but he knew that's what needed to be done and I just don't see that from a lot of projects because a lot of projects at the end of the day aren't about innovation they're not about changing things they're about how do we make people as rich as possible and if the success factor of a project is you participated in the ICO and you've managed to find an idiot to buy the tokens from you at a multiple of what you paid for so you got yours we are no better as an ecosystem and no better as a community than the people that we seek to replace we have people who do this every day they're coke goldman sachs if you read the emails between the traders who sold junk financial products the people for the 2008 collapse and you see how they said well it's junk but I managed to sell it how are we in morally any better if we do as a space the same thing and unfortunately I see that in a lot of projects so I think that needs to change I think we need to be more humble I think we need to listen to people and I think we need to be a bit more careful with our words and a bit more careful with our judgments at the end of the day you're not always going to agree with people and at the end of the day you're not always going to like people but you have to work with them and you have to find some way to respect them I don't always agree with Vitalik but I've never had a bad conversation with him and I do respect him he's a good guy at the end of the day and he does good work and I will never in my life ever say that he doesn't care about aetherium or the mission of aetherium or the goals of aetherium we strongly disagree on the dow hack and we strongly disagree about a lot of the things that have happened but it's water under the bridge it happened we went our own way but I respect him as a person and I respect his leadership and I respect that he makes good decisions sometimes bad decisions but at least he's making decisions with humility and an open heart I cannot say the same about certain other people in the space and I hope we as a space grow up a little bit and we realized that we only have a small window of time to actually affect and make real change and we only have a small window of time to prove ourselves to be better than those who came before us if we squander that window yes we'll get rich and some of us already have gotten rich and we may even be able to keep the wealth that we've made but we haven't improved the world and all we've done is given the very people that we sought to replace better tools to make our lives more miserable better tools to freeze our assets better tools to enforce civil asset forfeiture better tools to track every purchase that we've made better tools to compromise our privacy and reduce us all to a big data problem that AI can parse and decide who's good and who's bad that's all we've accomplished so yeah congratulations you get a but you've traded your soul for it and everyone else's future for it so with respect to these types of projects I would hope that they realize that they have a tremendous social responsibility they have a tremendous obligation to the space and when you're given that much capital you must invest it wisely and you must have humility it will run out one day and you have to be accountable for how you spend it anyway thank you guys so much for your time this was a fun two hours I hope to do this again and anyway go car dot oh and good luck Croatia Cheers